On Reviving the Commissions

On Reviving the Commissions

There’s already been a good bit of thoughtful (see Dave Glazier) and not so thoughtful commentary about the Obama Administration’s decision to revive the commissions. I admit, news of the continuation of the commissions (in some revised form) hardly filled me with joy. But I’ve also been sorry to see rhetoric that seems to paint it at the end of the rule of law as we know it. It’s a limited solution to a problem with no good outcomes. Here’s my thinking.

First, why this decision? My best guess is the Fifth Amendment-based requirement that all statements by the defendant admitted into evidence be made voluntarily. Lemme reach back a ways to criminal procedure. This is the right Miranda (“You have the right to remain silent…”) is designed to protect – but it goes beyond Miranda. So presumably even if you read a suspect his Miranda rights, then you torture him to elicit a confession, the statement isn’t admissible. Like much of criminal law, whether a statement is “voluntary” is an inquiry into the totality of the circumstances (whether a suspect’s will has been overborne, etc.). Torture and abject cruel and inhuman treatment – now both excluded from the realm of commission admissible evidence – are probably not the only ways to render a statement involuntary. So imagine we’ve held someone in a detention facility for seven years – and imagine we’ve treated him fabulously well (let’s not complicate matters for the moment). We read him his Miranda rights after the first few years, but we’ve also made it clear to him that there’s no way he’s going anywhere anytime soon. He said on Day 1: “I am Al Qaeda and I was proud to spend 2002 shooting at Americans [under circumstances that violated the laws of war].” He said it again after he was Mirandized, and he continues to say it to this day. This is the only evidence (or information of any kind) about this guy we have. Would his statements be considered “voluntary” under the totality of the detention circumstances? Seems like one would be hard pressed to make a case in federal court that they were. I’ll be less than thrilled if a military commission concludes that they are (and even less happy – and view it as wrong as a matter of law – if a commission concludes that particular constitutional right doesn’t apply to Mr. Al Qaeda at all). But at least commission jurisprudence is its own isolated species. A decision to that effect in the federal courts – i.e. a decision that we can hold someone indefinitely up to seven years and his statements are still considered voluntary, a decision I’m guessing a federal court might well render in favor of prosecuting this guy – is precedent for everyone. So better cabin the damage and cut our losses. That’s the best argument in favor of this outcome I can make. I’m still not sure whether it’s true.

Second, now what? Well, the old commissions had some major problems. Problem 1 was the rules on paper. To the extent “rules” existed at all for the commissions in their earliest days, they were grossly inadequate, tethered neither to U.S. nor international law of any recognizable sort, and geared not toward determining guilt or innocence but securing conviction. Over time, and only as a result of years worth of advocacy inside the courts and out, by folks inside government and out, the rules on paper have come a long way from their pathetic beginning. They are still hardly perfect, and the modifications the Administration has announced it is proposing are in the right direction: no evidence based on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, greater hearsay protections, etc. It is hard to imagine any of this facing a quiet or unsullied road through the courts; the new commissions will inevitably confront direct and collateral challenges to the process detainees’ lawyers will appropriately bring. And how issues like the voluntariness one I discussed are handled will be important. But in the end, it is still – as it was from the beginning – possible to create a lawful set of rules for the operation of military commission trials.

That said, the military commissions as conducted under the last Administration also suffered from Problem 2, a problem quietly evident to the multiple military prosecutors who resigned from the early commission system, and unavoidably visible to all who sat in (as I did) on its early proceedings. It was clear from the outside that the prosecution was favored – clear from the lengthy fight to open the trials to any kind of public view, clear from the desks and printers and paralegals that prosecutors had (and defense attorneys did not), clear from the quality of the translators available (who may or may not have known enough of the relevant language to make proceedings comprehensible to the defendant), clear from some of the initial selected commissioners (including one officer whose responsibilities in Afghanistan included sorting and sending folks to Gitmo in the first place). After they resigned, some of the JAG prosecutors who had worked for the commissions at the outset explained it starkly: guilt was assumed, potentially exculpatory evidence seemed easily “misplaced,” and political pressure was the sense of the day.

This administration might try different cases. It might dig up all the previously “lost” exculpatory information, and do everything possible to avoid the process being one of politics rather than law. But it will be exceedingly hard to overcome the reality and the recent memory of where these commissions have been. This President is obviously acutely attuned to the importance of the perceptions of the international community. And by international community I mean not only that “community” of international lawyers, legislators, and law professors no one but OJ’ers knows, but also those people the President was worried (probably rightly) would be further enraged by more photos from Abu Ghraib. How will that community not also be further enraged by a return to Trials By Gitmo Commission – however the technical rules are improved? How to mitigate what effects of this nature there are likely to be?

In this regard, I was struck over the past few days by President Obama’s commencement addresses at Arizona State University and Notre Dame (and indulge me a moment’s digression). Both speeches had been preceded by mini-political dramas – one about whether Obama’s accomplishments to date were sufficient to justify the awarding of an honorary degree, the other about whether a Catholic university should feature a commencement speaker who was avowedly committed to protecting the lawfulness of abortion. While it would’ve been trivially easy to craft appropriately soaring speeches on such occasions that avoided any whiff of politics, Obama took both controversies head on. Indeed, in response to a heckler at his Notre Dame speech, the New York Times quotes Obama as saying: “We’re not going to shy away from things that are uncomfortable sometimes.” Even just on rhetorical grounds, I tend to think this kind of directness is one of Obama’s greatest strengths, and one of the things he does best.

The contrast between these speeches and the Administration’s public handling of detainee issues to date was pretty stark. The Administration has just made a tough decision, one that is predictably and reasonably unpopular with a lot of smart people who care about legal rights. Yet the official news came late on a Friday afternoon. It had a short statement attached. There was a quiet (reportedly unpersuasive) phone conference with human rights groups. And there’s a long, inevitable, and chronically newsworthy battle ahead (especially if reports are correct the trials will be held, as should be the case, onshore). If the goal is (as it should be) to mitigate the legitimacy problem, I’m just not sure how the bury-it-Friday approach works. It hasn’t had a very good track record as policy options in this realm go. It hasn’t worked on torture, a story that continues to metastasize day by day. And I worry whether it will work here. So what’s the downside to a different approach? One that states the commission decision boldly, embraces it, owns it, and most of all, explains it. To what extent did existing facts drive the decision? Who will gain and who will lose? What are the tough calls yet to come? What can we hope the commissions will achieve? And most of all, why are these commissions worthy of our legal faith?

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Charles Gittings

Deborah, This is a hopeless mistake,  period. 1) The commissions are strictly illegal under US law: they represent war crimes pursuant to 18 USC 2441(c)(2) AND either 18 USC 2441(c)(1) or (c)(3) depending on whether the conflict falls under Geneva Common Article 2 or Geneva Common Article 3. 2) We have two perfectly acceptable systems for trying accused criminals: the Article III Courts and the Military Justice System. Obama has now joined the Bush administration in insulting both of those systems in favor of illegal and fundamentally unjust kangaroo courts. 3) By inventing the entire procedural framework of criminal due process from whole cloth (and rotten cloth at that) using the commissions will insure that every little procedural detail gets appealed in in the Article III courts, because every little procedural detail will in fact be inherently unjust on account of the entire system being designed for only one purpose: to circumvent both the Constitution and the law that Barrack Obama swore to faithfully execute.  They deserve to lose every appeal just like the Bush administration did. They are just flat wrong, and Barrack Obama is smart enough to know better. Congress should not go along with this under any… Read more »

Charles Gittings

PS:

Judge Green got this exactly right: the 5th amendment is not optional.

dmv

So better cabin the damage and cut our losses. That’s the best argument in favor of this outcome I can make. I’m still not sure whether it’s true.

That statement was just absolutely stunning to me. We’re talking about the rights of the criminally accused, here. Just cabin the damage and cut our losses?

Is this how far we’ve fallen?

Couple it with Iqbal, and hey! look! The government can do whatever it wants, really, because this is Serious Business, and accountability means never having to say you’re sorry when we’re breakin’ dishes…

I’m really just stunned that “cabin the damage and cut our losses” is even an acceptable argument. Cabin the damage and cut up the Constitution. Cabin the damage and squeeze harder on what remains of civil liberty in this country.

What has happened to us?

John C. Dehn

Deborah,

I am less persuaded than you that the Fifth Amendment is relevant or the source of this change in approach (and am uncertain whether you are truly persuaded or really just hopeful).  I agree that any voluntariness analysis required – perhaps as part of analyzing the indicia of reliability for residual heasay –  would be significantly affected by continued detention and the number of previous confessions made, and whether those confessions were coerced or not.  {{If the Fifth Amendment and Miranda were to apply, these would also be relevant to the issue of whether the waiver of Fifth Amendment rights was knowingly and voluntarily made.}}
Like you, I would like to see military commissions eliminated from U.S. law.  I believe that can be accomplished without unnecessarily grafting the Fifth Amendment onto military interrogations.  Military necessity allows the taking of civilian life and property

John C. Dehn

…correction, an unplanned “submit” there and they took away the power to edit after such events (why?)…  the above should read “residual hearsay” and please replace all after “Military necessity” with: …allows the destruction of civilian life and property if not disproportionate to the direct and concrete military advantage to be gained from an attack.  There is no clearer deprivation of “life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”.  I am uncertain how we could elevate the right against self incrimination and its voluntariness requirement – in the context of military interrogations – to a level above the right to life in military operations.  This is not to say that interrogations should ever coerce confessions…merely that the Fifth Amendment is not necessary to imposing any such restriction. There is clearly a “public necessity” component of military necessity which allows the abrogation of certain rights in certain circumstances.  The Supreme Court has recognized this in several cases, including Milligan.  By this I mean that the Court’s adoption of any standard for the domestic use of a military commission for a civilian, even a “courts closed” standard, admits the possibility of abridging Article III’s vesting of federal judicial power, the Fifth Amendment right to a… Read more »

Charles Gittings

John:

Military necessity does not in any way, shape or form warrant attacks or abuse against defenseless prisoners under any circumstance. Attacks against undefended places and the abuse of persons who are hors de combat are strictly prohibited, and if you don’t know that then you aren’t nearly as good an officer or lawyer as I thought.

There is no excuse for any of this CRIMINAL nonsense. It reflects only the ignorance, incompetence, dishonesty, and DISLOYALTY of the people who are responsible for advocating and committing war crimes.

Charly

John C. Dehn

Charly,

My earlier posts referred only to the applicability of the Fifth Amendment.  Note this sentence from the second post above:  “This is not to say that interrogations should ever coerce confessions…merely that the Fifth Amendment is not necessary to imposing any such restriction.”  This means that I recognize that military necessity is limited by the laws of war, and that those laws are relevant to this issue.  I am here discussing only a specific point regarding the admissibility of reliable hearsay evidence.

As I have stated before, I humbly ask that you please refrain from personal attacks or any reference to my official position, as I here speak solely in a private capacity.  I also request you to read things carefully before commenting.  We can agree to disagree without attacking each other’s credentials or character.  I admire your zeal for this issue.  But if you continue in this manner, I will be unable to comment in the future as I do not want issues raised regarding my official position.  Thanks.

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[…] Over at Opino Juris, Deborah Perlstein looks at the optics of the Obama Administration’s decision to move forward on military commissions: I was struck over the past few days by President Obama’s commencement addresses at Arizona State University and Notre Dame (and indulge me a moment’s digression). Both speeches had been preceded by mini-political dramas – one about whether Obama’s accomplishments to date were sufficient to justify the awarding of an honorary degree, the other about whether a Catholic university should feature a commencement speaker who was avowedly committed to protecting the lawfulness of abortion. While it would’ve been trivially easy to craft appropriately soaring speeches on such occasions that avoided any whiff of politics, Obama took both controversies head on. Indeed, in response to a heckler at his Notre Dame speech, the New York Times quotes Obama as saying: “We’re not going to shy away from things that are uncomfortable sometimes.” Even just on rhetorical grounds, I tend to think this kind of directness is one of Obama’s greatest strengths, and one of the things he does best. […]

Kenneth Anderson

Charles:  Deborah is of course free to police comments to her own posts, but I want to second what John has said regarding ad hominem attacks or simply the repetition of endless expressions of outrage.  It is not just the level of invective, it is the constant refrain that your positions are the only conceivable ones and that others that disagree with yours are all vile.  This blog, as I understand it, starts from a point of scholarly commentary and assumes a level of friendly discourse – pointed disagreement is fine,so long as it is reasoned, but repeated expressions of abuse, not.  Again, however, the issue is not simply abuse – it is a general assumption that the matters under discussion are susceptible of only one view or interpretation.  One might come to a conclusion that one answer really is the right one or better, but that’s a conclusion of polite discourse, not the starting point. And quite often people might have to agree to disagree – a fact of life for the bloggers of OJ, and so too for our commenters.   The general tone that you adopt has the effect of turning away more reasoned commentary – some… Read more »

Charles Gittings

I didn’t intend a personal attack: I just don’t get where military necessity is even a consideration here.  War crimes, crimes against humanity, obstruction of justice, witness tampering, etc, are NOT lawful military operations by definition. Neither are irregular tribunals that do not afford the accused all the protections of law etc.

We have heard all the excuses, and the excuses are all lies.

Kenneth Anderson

Charles, when called on these issues, you then back down and say you didn’t intend a personal attack.  It is wearing thin – it has completely worn thin with me.  And remember, as I indicated in my last comment, the issue is not merely personal attacks – it is the preemptory assumption that yours is the only possible way of looking at these things.   Why?  Because tone matters, and that particular tone inhibits more reasoned discussion and tends to clutter the commentary to the point that more reasonable people do not want to participate.   And that is before even getting to the coda, “We have heard all the excuses, and the excuses are all lies.” I’m sorry, but that is simply not – or, let me say speaking for myself, no longer – an acceptable level of commentary on this kind of blog.   To be clear.  Personal attacks are not the only issue here; the level of unqualified assertion on highly contentious that characterizes your comments is simply not the way that reasonable people in academic discourse try to discuss things.  Possibly all very namby-pamby – but that’s the nature of this forum.  It’s not a political… Read more »

John C. Dehn

Deborah, Thanks so much for prompting me to clarify, as I realize I have misread your post and inadvertently combined two separate categories of extrajudicial statements.  No wonder I confused you!  Now that I have had my evening constitutional at the gym, I think I can clarify. First, I misread you to say that the Fifth Amendment prompted policy changes to statements admissible in evidence at military commissions.  (How I do not know…shows how much we can all learn something about reading carefully.)  What you were in fact saying (I think) is that it would apply in any other venue where these trials might be held.  Therefore, it forms part of the reason that the President elected to continue military commissions.  It is a fair point and an interesting question. I do believe that the “voluntariness” of any statement is relevant to its admissibility.  I believe its mere relevance or probative value depends upon its inherent reliability.  I believe I am on record here as saying that coerced statements are presumptively unreliable.  I am just not willing to look to the Fifth Amendment for the source of any rule requiring voluntariness of a statement by an enemy alien.  The reason I am reluctant to import the Fifth Amendment are several. … Read more »

Charles Gittings

Ken, What issues?? Factual allegations are not personal attacks, and falsely accusing me of a personal attack isn’t an issue. Back down?? I’m not backing down from a damn thing. The meaning of 18 USC 2441(c)(2) is THE ISSUE — and since you are a law professor at avery fine school who happens to be a very fine writer on your good days, I presume you must know how to read a statute. It took me just a couple of months to work out a basic analysis of the relevant laws and the Bush gang’s conspiracy to commit war crimes between 13 Nov 2001, the day they issued the patently unlawful “PMO”, and  7  Feb 2002, the day the issued the facially dishonest “Fact Sheet” (and secret memo) on Geneva. I’ve been tracking them day in and day out ever since — and getting falsely accused of personal animus by apologists like you the entire time. And for seven and a half years the facts have confirmed my analysis over and over again. So have the OLC memos whose contents I deduced by linguistic analysis and logical inference long before they were made public. I was inside David Addington’s warped… Read more »

Charles Gittings

John,

Judge Green got the 5th amendment exactly right in In re Guantanamo Detainee Cases, 355 F. Supp. 2d 443 (D.D.C. 2005).

Did Boumediene overrule her or the government?

Charly

Peter Orlowicz
Peter Orlowicz

Slightly off-topic here, since it doesn’t relate specifically to the hearsay issue, but one of the obstacles to a regular federal court proceeding or military court-martial for some of these detainees relates to the potential admissibility of physical evidence, doesn’t it? Once again, I certainly don’t think we should let the military commissions become a carte blanche for evidentiary shortcuts, but I also don’t feel like we should have to require Army sergeants in Afghanistan to carry chain-of-custody evidence forms, either.

Charles Gittings

Peter, “Requiring Army sergeants in Afghanistan to carry chain-of-custody evidence forms” is nothing but a red-herring… Do you have any idea of what the US Army does routinely by way of tracking what they do in combat? They have cameras mounted on their helmets with real-time satellite up-links, they do after action reporting and analysis, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps John would be so kind as to give us a little briefing on just how elaborate the data gathering and reporting for C2 really is. Gee, they even have military police who are trained in law enforcement and security, not that the Bush administration ever worried much about actually running an effective occupation when it was so much more fun just murdering people indiscriminately for no good reason at all. Such comments merely display your own ignorance of military operations, which are all about gathering and analyzing information. And if one of our soldiers committed a crime on the battlefield against another one of our soldiers, I can guarantee you that any competent commander would see to it that there was a full criminal investigation and that anyone accused of a crime got a fair trial including any 5th amendment rights… Read more »

John C. Dehn

To clarify, I do not believe Boumediene addresses the Fifth Amendment because it deals with a limit on the powers granted to our federal government in Article 1, sec. 9 of the Constitution rather than with the Bill of Rights.  Indeed, it does not appear to me that Boumediene deals with a known enemy captured in the course of an armed conflict, but rather with a putative enemy who denies being an enemy. Lieber and Winthrop believed that the condition of war suspended the civil law between belligerent forces in the field (a lex specialis principle if ever there was one), such that the laws of war were the only ones governing trial of enemy combatants for law of war violations.  This is why military commissions were only governed by “military necessity” as outlined in Winthrop’s treatise and implied by the Supreme Court in Jecker v. Montgomery in reference to all military tribunals established in Mexico.  This view of military tribunals appears to have been maintained in Quirin and Yamashita, both finding that they were not courts whose actions were subject to review by the Supreme Court (except to determine that they were acting within the scope of military necessity). If military necessity… Read more »

Charles Gittings

John,

That just perplexes me. We are talking about very serious crimes here, and you want to reach back before the IMT Charter and even Hague 1907 for the sake of revisionism that I can only think is misguided. Lieber is quiteclear about military necessity, and you’ll havetoshow me an actual citation from Winthrop begfore I’llaccept he;s cdonfused,

But how is any of this even relevant to the fact that in thehere andnbow our own government is committing
WAR CRIMES BY POLICY IN VIOLATION OF OUR OWN LAWS AND THE SWORN DUTIES OF EVERY US OFFICIAL INVOLVED?

And why?

Becasue you think the Nazis got a raw deal at Nurmeberg?

Surely not, but that’s where yourrevisionism lewads whether you realize it not.

And I also beleive that it is aviolation of the laws ofwar to alter said lawsin the middle of a conflict… that isthe meaningofHR 23[h], andthe principle date back to the US friendship treaty with Prussia.

Charly

Charles Gittings

And the silence, once again, is DEAFENING.

Ask a simple question, get a cloud of squid ink. It’s old news to me after nearly eight years of this nonsense — the only thing that really puzzles me is why our law schools tolerate professors who aid, abet, and incite crimes.

But it doesn’t puzzle me much… I started my career in banking after all. It’s just a damn shame to see the dishonesty involved.

Chris Borgen

Charly:

I have seen you complain in other threads that there is a deafening silence to your queries. Have you considered that, quite simply, some of the people to whom you are addressing questions are otherwise busy and not checking-in on the blog?  This was mentioned, I believe, the last time you wrote a “silence is deafening” comment.

Moreover, I think you need to consider that your harsh tone, acting as if your interlocutors are either dense or dishonest, is not conducive to promoting a conversation. If all a conversation with you leads to is name-calling–and that is increasingly the case–do not expect that you will have many people responding to your queries.  If treated that way, I wouldn’t.

And, once again, I remind you, and all commentors, that we expect civility in this forum. If you are unable to make a comment without descending to ad hominems or similar such rhetoric, then it is not a comment worth making or worth our keeping posted.

And, along those lines, cut out the ALLCAPS, they are the net’s equivalent of shouting.

Chris

John C. Dehn

Charly, I have been basking in the glow of my student evaluations all day.  You ruined it.  Quite simply, Chris is right.  You clearly do not understand my post and have resorted to impugning my character to make your inane and repetitive point.  I have tried in every way I can think of to set an example for you as to what constitutes civil academic discourse and gentlemanly conduct.  You have failed to get the message, as your responses to Peter’s and my posts clearly indicate.  I will no longer address your comments if you continue in this manner.  My silence will indeed be deafening. I truly mean what I have said previously to you.  I wish more U.S. citizens took as deep an interest in this issue as you have.  However, I would also caution them, and you, to make every effort to attempt understand what they don’t understand.  The world is not always as simple as we think it is or would like it to be.  While 1 + 1 is always 2, as you repeatedly say, what seems like a “1” might be a complex fraction to a more fully informed observer.  Rather than me citing Winthrop’s treatise for you, why don’t you go find… Read more »

Charles Gittings

Chris, I try very hard to be respectful — indeed, you can read my PEGC Project Protocol here: http://www.pegc.us/protocol.html But I have no respect for liars, apologists, or subversives who incite crimes. As for Ken Anderson, if he had time to falsely accuse me of a personal attack, he had time to answer me on the merits. The only reason he wont answer me is that he has none: he’s guilty as charged, an apologist who invents excuses for war criminals,  and that isn’t anything more or less than a fact. And so is the existence of 18 USC 2441(c)(2). Those who want respect should show respect. I don’t really care what anyone thinks of me — I’ve devoted the last seven and a half years of my life to the service of my country and humanity as an unpaid volunteer, and I know exctly what my motivations are.  But I must say it: what really makes me angry is the direspect that people like Ken Anderson and Julian Ku show for the law itself.  Such hypocrites are morally and mentally unfit to either practice or teach law, or hold any postion of public trust. I am not speaking from… Read more »

Charles Gittings

John, How exactly have I impugned your character? Note carefully that I did not in fact equate you with Julian Ku or Ken Anderson. I do have serious misgivings about some of the things you’ve said, but my impression is that you’re more mistaken than anything else, and you haven’t really explained yourself enough for me to reach a firm conclusion. I still want to see a citation to Winthrop. But I really fail to see how Winthrop or Lieber havemuch relevance to our goverrnment committing crimes against the IMT Charter or Geneva 1949, andit isimpossible for anyone who is a specialist inthe lawsof war tobe unaware that in fact our government is in fact coimmittingsuch crimes. That isn’t a statment about your character, but objective reality, and anyone who claims there’s room for reasonable disagreement on that point is a liar. Facts are facts. And what exactly is inane about wanting the laws of the United States to be obeyed by those who have sworn to defend and enforce them? A public official who uses his office to commit crimes is the worst kind of criminal there is. There’;s nothing academic about any of this — DoD, DOJ, and… Read more »

John C. Dehn

Charly, I will try to help you understand things a little better one last time.  The relevance of Winthrop and Lieber is that they are the true beginning of our domestic incorporation of the laws governing war…during the Civil War – a non-international armed conflict.  They followed on the heels of Scott’s commissions in Mexico, addressed very generally by the Supreme Court in Jecker v. Montgomery.  Because this is the case, the theory underlying their approach is important to understanding things like Article 15 of the Articles of War, which became Article 21 of the UCMJ and was ultimately (and probably correctly though inartfully) used to invalidate the Bush MCO. Winthrop was cited by both the majority and plurality opinions in Hamdan, and has been cited in rulings at the current military commissions.  He was cited in Quirin and Yamashita, among other cases.  In short, his work has become a desk reference for the Supreme Court when confronting law of war issues…but we do not have a full understanding of his jurisprudence.  Further, his work did not account for the Hague Regulations even though last published in 1920.  It therefore certainly does not address the Geneva Conventions.  What should the Court know about the… Read more »

Charles Gittings

John, OK, I’ve been operating on overdrive these days for more reasons than you know — I apologize for the confusion: the comment of mine you cite was in fact intended for Ken Anderson, not you — and I do NOT in fact believe any such thing about you. As for the rest of your post, I’ve already done most of that research from my own perspective, and don’t actually disagree with much you’ve said here. I am certainly well acquainted with Lieber and Winthrop. If you could email me some links for the stuff you mention, that would be appreciated and I’ll have a look. My own concerns here are entirely pragmatic: war crimes have been committed; some of the perpetrators are still engaged in a criminal conspiracy to commit further war crimes; and said unindicted felons are now actively engaged in subverting the current government of the United States for criminal purposes. Our nation is under attack by internal enemies bent on subverting both the Constitution and laws in ways reminiscent of the Nazis and Soviets. Those enemies infest all three branches of our government, and that is just another sad fact all of us who actually believe… Read more »

John C. Dehn

Charly, Thanks.  I will respond to say this.  It does not matter so much to whom your comment was addressed.  It was inappropriate for this very public forum.  We all work very hard — and try very hard to sort out what we believe and why.  That does not give anyone the right to say the things that you sometimes do – the personal attacks – here.  I can assure you that some former officials against whom you regularly express rage evoke the same feelings in me.  I simply recognize that verbalizing it will not contribute to a very serious discussion of the subject.  If I give in to it, it will also hamper my objectivity.  Maintaining objectivity (or at the least the outward appearance of it) is the key to persuasive legal analysis and scholarship. You are clearly a dedicated patriot, as am I and others who contribute to this site.  The beauty of this nation is that we all have a right to say what we believe – even me in my private and academic capacities.  In this forum, I humbly ask that you do so with the decorum and respect that you have just shown me with everyone else as well, whether they… Read more »

Peter Orlowicz
Peter Orlowicz

“Do you have any idea of what the US Army does routinely by way of tracking what they do in combat? They have cameras mounted on their helmets with real-time satellite up-links, they do after action reporting and analysis, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps John would be so kind as to give us a little briefing on just how elaborate the data gathering and reporting for C2 really is.” I would submit the standards and requirements for intelligence gathering are very different from the standards and requirements for evidence in a civilian or military trial. If they weren’t, none of this discussion would be an issue, would it? Aren’t some of the detainees in that position because our intelligence gathering indicates they are (or might be) terrorists? As for military courts-martial of our own military personnel, I think the same problems of physical evidence present themselves, which is arguably why it’s difficult to get convictions in cases like the Haditha incident, for instance. The military as an entity is not really set up to perform regular law-enforcement functions on a large scale (with the notable exception of the Coast Guard), and military police or masters-at-arms are relatively small portions of the… Read more »

Charles Gittings

John, I show respect to those who deserve respect, War criminals and those who apologize, incite, or abet their crimes deserve none at all. Ken Anderson and Julian Ku are a disgrace to both the United States and the legal profession. Defense Secretary Robert Gates is a murderer, a torturer, and a war criminal. On information and belief, these conclusions are those of Titles 10 and 18 of the United States Code, not anything personal. Facts are merely facts. Of all the things I’ve become an expert on the last seven and a half years, what I’ve become most expert on are the legal arguments of the apologists, and I have yet to hear one that was wasn’t patently fraudulent. Over that time I’ve had the recurring thought that every law school in the country should require every candidate for a JD to complete a full year of training in formal logic, and a full year of training in linguistics, because frankly, it’s become quite obvious that most lawyers don’t have much grasp of either discipline despite the fact that both are integral to the law. What they do know is legal rhetoric, which has its place, but should never… Read more »

Charles Gittings

Peter, Thank for providing me with a perfect illustration of just how deluded and foolish some of you folks really are: 1) Any combat commander or criminal investigator who ignores ANY factual evidence a priori is an incompetent fool who has no business being entrusted with. You gather all the factual evidence you can and sort it out as time allows. I’m systems analyst, and the only reason you people want to exclude some evidence is that you want to be able to falsify the facts to support your desired conclusions. In short, your indulgingin the sort of rhetoricasl chicanery that is the litigators bread and butter. In real war, doingstuff like that gets people killed, In a real criminal investigation that sort of thing gets innocent people convicted while the guilty go free. 2) You’ll have to show me where I have ever said anyone is a crimnal merely because they disagreed with me. On information and belief, I only call people criminals because that’s what the facts and the law say they are, and if you claim otherwise then you’re a liar. Consider yourself challenged to an open debate on the facts and the law — I’m not… Read more »

Patrick
Patrick

I am probably talking to the wind, but Charles, I believe that under US law someone is a criminal when they are convicted of a crime. I might be wrong but I even believe there is something in your Constitution about this.

The fact that makes someone a criminal is that of conviction for a crime. So on the facts and the law as I believe they stand in this country, you are wrong to call any of the people involved a criminal.

Peter Orlowicz
Peter Orlowicz

Charles, Nowhere did I discuss, imply or otherwise mention ignoring factual evidence. I was simply stating gathering information for intelligence purposes and gathering information for criminal prosecution are very different processes, and the military is very good at one and much less skilled at the other. To bring the discussion back toward the original poster’s subject, hearsay in the intelligence context can be a gold mine of information. Hearsay in the evidence context, unless it meets a qualified exception, is not admissible. Is that what you consider “ignoring factual evidence”? Does every granted motion to suppress evidence at trial signify the judge ignoring factual evidence? As far as I can tell, you’ve consistently refused to find any validity at all in anyone’s interpretation of the law except your own. If you’ve admitted otherwise, please point me there and I’ll gladly retract that statement. If your reading of the facts and the law are the only valid ones, and anyone who claims otherwise is a liar, then I stand by my statement that you’ve effectively defined everyone not in agreement with your interpretation as wrong, and a liar, and a war criminal apologist, and on and on. If you want an… Read more »

Charles Gitttings

The proof is in the pudding — If either of you think you have reasonable disagreements with my factual allegations, let’s see them.  I’ll be very happy to tell you just exactly how valid and reasonable I think they are.

Charles Gittings

And once again, the silence is deafening.

And we have President Obama playin spin doctor for the Bush gang, while Dirty Dick Cheny regurgitates ther saqme old stale BS and lies and nobody wants to notice the glaring fact that these murdersous war criminals have committed federal felonies numering into at least seven fihues of individual counts.

TheBush gangsters are the most despicable criminals this nation has ever produced: a pack of murderous new-age nazis bent on subversion and treason. 

Their crimes are inexcusable and unpardonable, period.

VAP
VAP

Please pull the plug on Gittings, I’m one of your reader’s who remains mostly silent.  I’d like to engage in the post’s discussion but I don’t have the time or the patience to respond to Gittings, and my comments will surely draw his ad hominem attacks.  I suppose it wouldn’t be a big deal, but I don’t want my thoughts associated with his rants and attacks.  This is especially so when I will be hitting the job market in the fall and don’t need my name popping up in Google searches next to “war criminal apologist.”  Of course, I could comment under a pseudonymn (like now), but why should I have to hide?  As an alternative if you could install the plug-in that the Obama campaign installed where comments which receive more negative than positive votes are hidden, that might solve the problem. 

Thanks for listening, sorry for the pseudonymn.