Wrap Up Discussion I

Wrap Up Discussion I

As I look to wrap up what has been an energetic and stimulating dialogue on a host of international legal issues, I would like to post some responses now, and will conclude next week. Let me reiterate how much we appreciate the comments, especially from those who have provided detailed legal and historical analysis. For too long, the discourse on these complex and difficult issues has been at too high a level of generality, and these comments have been very helpful to us.

I want to begin by tackling perhaps the most fundamental issue underlying many of the threads this week: why the United States believes it is in an armed conflict with al Qaida. Marko, for example, has stated that he continues to disagree with the premise that the conflict with al Qaida is a global armed conflict, preferring to view the conflict as discrete wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. I have already discussed in depth why we view our conflict with al Qaida in global terms. The magnitudes of the attacks they have undertaken against us and our allies across the globe belie the comforting conclusion that the enemy is confined to discrete geographical locations. But regardless of whether one accepts that argument, it seems beyond controversy that our actions in Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 constituted a war. U.S. and Coalition forces were engaged in military actions, not enforcement of criminal laws. And I think the continued casualties inflicted on Coalition troops in Afghanistan, and on civilian populations around the globe by al Qaida, confirm that this conflict is ongoing. Most critically though, whether one then views those detained in this conflict as detained in a global or territorially-discrete conflict does not change the central legal proposition that they are wartime detainees to whom the law of war applies.

What it means for individuals to be detained under the law of war has been the source of much consternation on this board as well. Many posts have suggested the view that everyone captured in the conflict with al Qaida and the Taliban is entitled to protection under either the Third or Fourth Convention. While I can understand an aspiration that there be no gaps in coverage between the two Conventions, I thought Geoffrey Corn’s reference to the final record of the drafting sessions helpfully clarified that the conventions were designed to protect certain specific types of individuals, not everyone.

For example, the Third Convention on prisoners of war describes with great precision the 6 categories of persons who are considered to be prisoners of war — including members of the armed forces of a party to the conflict, members of other militias and volunteer groups who meet four specific conditions, and persons who accompany the armed forces — and 2 categories of persons who are to be treated as prisoners of war. The Fourth Convention on civilians specifically excludes several categories of persons from its coverage, such as nationals of a state not bound by the convention and, in certain circumstances, nationals of a neutral state in the territory of a belligerent, and nationals of a co-belligerent state — as well as persons covered under the First, Second or Third Conventions. As Geoffrey Corn’s post makes clear, the Fourth Convention was designed to protect civilian victims of war, and was not intended to be a “safety net” to protect “illegitimate bearers of arms who could not expect full protection under rules of war to which they did not conform.”

Others took issue with how we’ve gone about determining whether a combatant is entitled to protection under the Third Convention. Ken Anderson’s observation that while as an international law matter the President was authorized to designate the Taliban and al Qaida as unlawful combatants, as a policy matter it would have made sense to use Article 5 Tribunals to do so, is also worthy of comment. The United States was not, and no country could have been, prepared to deal with the type of massive terrorist attacks and worldwide terrorist network that we confronted on September 11. There was no book on a shelf somewhere that contained a ready legal guide to combating armies of transnational terrorists. Article 5 of the Third Convention provides: “Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.” In 2002, our government concluded that because, as a legal matter, al Qaida (because they were not a party to the Convention) and the Taliban (because of their actions) could not qualify under any circumstances as POWs, Article 5 Tribunals were not necessary or appropriate.

Since that time, U.S. policies and practices have had to evolve significantly.

The United States has now created additional processes to ensure that those detained at Guantanamo are the right people to detain and are not detained any longer than is necessary. To ensure that we are holding the right people, every detainee in Guantanamo has his case reviewed by a formal Combatant Status Review Tribunal, which determines whether a detainee is properly classified as an enemy combatant. The detainee has the assistance of a military officer, may present information, and may appeal the determination of the CSRT to our federal courts. It is simply not correct to say that detainees have not and will not have access to our federal courts to review their detention. Nearly 40 detainees have been released as a result of this process.

Detainees who the United States does not intend to prosecute by military commission also have their detention reviewed annually by an Administrative Review Board. This Board determines whether the detainee can be released or transferred without posing a serious threat to the United States or its allies. We are aware of concerns about the indefinite nature of the conflict with al Qaida and the resulting concerns about indefinite detention. ARBs attempt to address these concerns by balancing our authority to detain fighters so they do not come back to fight us again against our desire not to hold anyone any longer than necessary. To date, more than 200 detainees have been released or transferred pursuant to the ARB process.

While I hope this addresses some of Katherine’s (and Nathaniel Nerode’s) concerns about the CSRT and ARB process, I do think she raises a good point about the difficulty of repatriating some detainees who have been designated as eligible for transfer or release. We have nearly 75 additional detainees that we would like to move off of Guantanamo, but have been unable to do so to date. In some instances, countries are not willing to take back their nationals, either because they cannot confirm their nationality or because they lack the will to accept back those that have been at Guantanamo. In other instances, countries have been unwilling or unable to take the steps needed to ensure that transferred detainees will not pose a threat to the United States or its allies. We are not in a position to transfer detainees to still other states because we have concerns about how those states will treat their nationals once returned. The State Department will continue to push countries to take back their nationals with appropriate security and humane treatment assurances. Similarly, we look to other countries in Europe and elsewhere help resettle those detainees who cannot be repatriated. Guantanamo is not going to be closed any faster by more breathless calls for its “immediate” closure, but foreign governments and NGOs can help reduce the number of detainees by urging countries to take responsibility for their nationals.

Katherine also wrote that she utterly disagreed with the contention that the Convention Against Torture does not apply to the war on terror. I want to clarify (again!) that this has never been our contention. We have never said that the Convention Against Torture (or the ICCPR for that matter) does not apply in times of war; frankly, this is one area where our position has repeatedly been mischaracterized, including by the Committee Against Torture and the Human Rights Committee.

What we have said is that from a legal perspective, whether a particular situation falls within the scope of any treaty requires a review of the specific conduct and the potentially relevant treaty provision(s) according to their terms. When dealing in situations of armed conflict, you also have to take into account that there is an entire body of law — the law of armed conflict or international humanitarian law — that provides specialized rules (the lex specialis) that govern. This does NOT mean that we think the CAT does not apply in a time of war. Of course it does. Our police are not free to ignore the CAT when they make arrests inside the United States. But when our troops are engaged in military operations, they follow the applicable laws of war, which provide specific rules (such as for the repatriation of prisoners) but which also include many analogous and often identical rules (such as the prohibition against torture).

As lawyers we believe that you have to read the treaties as they are, not as how some would like them to be. For example, we are often criticized for our long-standing position (dating from when Eleanor Roosevelt negotiated the Covenant) that the ICCPR does not apply extraterritorially. This view is based is based on the plain text of Article 2 of the ICCPR, which says that the Covenant applies only to individuals who are both within its territory and who are subject to its jurisdiction. This interpretation is supported by the plain text of the convention as well as its negotiating history (travaux preparatoire). You can read about our interpretation in detail here.

Another example — one Katherine mentioned — is Article 3 of the Convention Against Torture, which is a prohibition on transferring persons to another country where it is more likely than not that they will be tortured. One of the legal issues that has arisen in interpreting Article 3 has been whether it applies to transfers from outside the United States. Again, our legal conclusion, based on the plain text and Supreme Court interpretations of the term “refouler” (see Sale v. Haitian Centers Council, 509 U.S. 155 (1993)) as well as the negotiating history of the provision is that it does not. (More detail is on pages 32-37 of this document).

While we recognize that some might not agree with that legal analysis (the Committee Against Torture did not), we also believe that is based on a solid, good faith legal analysis of the text of the Convention, not on some results-driven attempt to evade the law.

Of course, we share the concern about not sending people to face torture. That’s why regardless of the legal analysis, in all cases the United States applies the standard the United States agreed to in Article 3 to detainees transferred from outside the United States (e.g., Guantanamo) as a matter of policy. We do not transfer people to countries where we believe it is more likely than not that they will be tortured. This policy applies to all components of the U.S. government and to individuals in U.S. custody or control wherever they might be detained.

Just as we must be careful about asserting what treaties mean, similarly we think people need to be more careful when making assertions about what constitutes “customary international law.” This has received attention in many posts, and some have cited to the recent study by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) on Customary International Humanitarian Law to support their arguments. There is general agreement that customary international law develops from a general and consistent practice of states followed by them out of a sense of legal obligation. Further, the law develops largely from the practice of specially affected states, not from commentators, statements by non-governmental organizations, or the practice of states with little history of participation in the activities in question. For that reason, the United States has concerns about the methodology of the ICRC study, and we have addressed those concerns directly with them. While we welcome the study’s discussion of this complex and important subject, and appreciate the major effort that the ICRC and the study’s authors have made, we are not in a position to accept without further analysis the study’s conclusions that particular rules related to the laws and customs of war in fact reflect customary international law.

A number of comments addressed the issue of proportionality, and correctly noted (Geoffrey Corn/Matthew Gross) that the concept is as much a part of state practice as it is based in treaty law. In addition to the Army Field Manual identified by Corn, the U.S. Navy’s Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations provides that incidental injury or collateral damage must not be “excessive in light of the military advantage anticipated by the attack.” The concept of proportionality appears in somewhat different terms in Articles 51(5)(b) and 57(2)(a)(iii) of Additional Protocol I. Proportionality is at issue not only in battlefield applications, but in the strategic context as well, as reflected in Daniel Webster’s letter to Mr. Fox concerning the Caroline incident (noting that Her Majesty’s Government would have to show that the Canadian authorities did nothing “unreasonable or excessive”?) and in the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice on the Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons (“the submission of the exercise of the right of self-defence to the conditions of necessity and proportionality is a rule of customary international law.”?)

Although time and space do not allow a complete discussion of the concept of proportionality as relates to all the questions raised by Benjamin Davis, Katharine and others, it is our position that the response to the attacks of 11 September 2001 has been as limited and as focused as possible to decisively counter the threat to the United States. The combat operations in both Afghanistan and Iraq were “swift and decisive” (as Matthew Gross referred to the war in Iraq). As relates to detainee operations and the unlawful enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, it is instructive to recall that only about 700 of over 80,000 individuals who were detained in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere were transferred to Guantanamo — the vast majority were screened and released.

Along those lines, several of the commentators repeated some of the allegations that have appeared in the press and in other fora about various U.S. actions. As I asked the U.N. Committee Against Torture, I would ask you not to believe every allegation that you have heard. Allegations about U.S. military or intelligence activities have become so hyperbolic as to be absurd. Critics will now accept virtually any speculation and rumor and circulate them as fact. The U.S. Government has attempted to address as many of these allegations as quickly and as fully as possible. And yet, as much as we would like to deny the numerous inaccurate charges made against our government, because many of the accusations relate to alleged intelligence activities, we have found that we cannot comment upon them except in a general way. So we ask that, when considering the “proportionality” of our actions in the global war on terror, everyone keep a sense of proportion and perspective about the relatively few actual cases of abuse and wrongdoing that have occurred. The United States is committed to the rule of law and has a well-functioning legal system to ensure criminal and civil accountability.

And speaking of criminal accountability, the comments to my post on The Meaning of Common Article Three reinforced in my mind the importance of clarity in criminal statutes and their implementing regulations. Katherine asks, “Doesn’t the U.S. Army court martial people for ‘conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.'” Indeed, the Army does so, as do the other uniformed services. However, while the text of Article 133 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a federal law, enacted by Congress in 10 U.S.C. 47) proscribes “conduct unbecoming,” the Manual for Courts-Martial (prescribed by Executive Order 12473, April 13, 1984, to implement the U.C.M.J.) contains etailed explanations of the nature of the offense, the type of conduct that violates the article, and examples of specific offenses. As I noted in my post, the US government never prosecuted anyone under the War Crimes Act, perhaps because of the lack of clarity in the statute. I believe the amended Act goes a long way toward correcting that lack of clarity, particularly since it contemplates that the President may issue further interpretations of what constitutes violations of CA3. I concur with Non liquet, citing Marty Lederman, that simply because a provision is broad does not necessarily make it vague. But, as Alan Kaufman notes, people are “seriously divided” on many of these issues.

Finally, I do want to briefly touch on Eric Posner’s comments about the bargain theory of war. While I found his piece to be an interesting intellectual exploration of the theory underlying the law of war in general, and the Geneva Conventions in particular, I believe it was an oversimplification of the relevant considerations. Eric contends that there is a dichotomy between the bargain model, whereby one limits one’s war making ability to extract similar concessions from other states, and the universalist model, whereby individuals have certain basic rights that cannot be transgressed regardless of that individual’s conduct. But the truth is that the law of war and the Geneva Conventions have elements of both concepts. For example, as I’ve already explained the Third Convention does operate as a bargain of sorts, by for the most part reserving its protections for soldiers of States that have accepted its strictures. But Article 85 of that Convention explicitly maintains POW treatment for those who qualify even after conviction for a violation of the laws of war, an example of universalist thinking. At the end of the day, I think the United States acts true to its tradition and history in considering certain norms sacrosanct, such as the prohibition on torture, and therefore cannot be disregarded regardless of the behavior of the enemy. But I also think we act consistently with international law in denying the full protections accorded lawful combatants to terrorist groups like al Qaida.

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Marko Milanovic
Marko Milanovic

Thank you again, Mr. Bellinger, for your response. Would it be possible for you to provide two additional clarifications, regarding two questions I had posed earlier: (1) Regardless of the applicability of GC IV, does your government now have a clear position on the fundamental guarantees in Article 75 of AP I, which it has always recognized as the most minimal guarantees which anyone participating in a conflict is entitled to. I ask this question because you have adopted an ambivalent position of “looking into” the question in an earlier interview with Anthony Dworkin, available on the Crimes of War website. (2) After Hamdan, do you realize that it is pointless to talk about lawful and unlawful combatancy, as these concepts are totally meaningless in a non-international armed conflict? Finally, I must say that am somewhat bemused by your government’s position on the applicability of human rights treaties to those detained in the war on terror. I don’t think that your conception of the lex specialis nature of IHL in relation to human rights law is a faithful interpretation of the ICJ’s Nuclear Weapons advisory opinion. Your position is that IHL simply displaces HR law in its entirety, even if… Read more »

Charles Gittings

“As Geoffrey Corn’s post makes clear, the Fourth Convention was designed to protect civilian victims of war, and was not intended to be a “safety net” to protect “illegitimate bearers of arms who could not expect full protection under rules of war to which they did not conform.”” The fact remains that what Geneva 4 actually says is that anyone who is not protected by GC1, GC2, or GC3 is protected by GC4, and the only exceptions relate to the persons nationality, not their alleged activites. The Geneva Conventions were not intended to be a ‘safety net’ for any war criminal of any status, as the grave breech provisions make clear, while legitmate combatants equally have no protection under Geneva 4. So what? The language of GC4 art. 4 is unambiguous, and the provisions of GC3 are irrelevant to GC4 beyond disqualifying anyone who is protected by GC3. No one is proteced by both. This isn’t just Geneva either — the IMT Charter (1945) states the basics concisely in art. 6; Hague IV (1907) also applies, in particular the Martens clause and arts. 22 &23 of the regulations. If you’re taking questions, here’s a few quick ones: * You mentioned… Read more »

Jan
Jan

I just want to make one general comment. I have no doubts about the high legal quality and sophistication of U.S. position on all these issues. They all have been drafted with great skills and great knowledge of international law. However, I have got the impression that often, we are losing sight of the forest for the trees. This is especially sad when we are dealing with human rights law or humanitarian law (Geneva). I think it is important to be at all times aware what the point, the rationale of this law is. That is the protection of all humans, their lives and dignity. Let me just give one example. The U.S. position on the applicability of HR treaties. As Mr. Bellinger writes: „This view is based is based on the plain text of Article 2 of the ICCPR, which says that the Covenant applies only to individuals who are both within its territory and who are subject to its jurisdiction. This interpretation is supported by the plain text of the convention as well as its negotiating history (travaux preparatoire).“ Yet, such a view ignores a broader context and in the end leads to absurd consequences. First of all,… Read more »

Tobias Thienel

I, too, disagree with the position of the US government on the extraterritorial (non-) applicability of human rights treaties. Indeed, the travaux preparatoires of Article 2(1) ICCPR also fail to support the American contention. The phrase on its territory’ was inserted at the request of the United States, and was intended – by the US representatives and those who accepted their proposal – as ruling out the application of positive obligations outside the national territory. The only relevant convern was that a State was in no position to guarantee a certain state of affairs in an area beyond its borders, and to that end to control the conduct of others. There was no suggestion that it would be impossible or in any sense undesirable for a State to control its own conduct abroad. Indeed, any such submission would be quite absurd, as Jan points out above. It is true, of course, that European authority on the meaning of the phrase ‘under its jurisdiction’ has given a somewhat more limited scope to the extraterritorial application of human rights obligations than the jurisprudence of the Human Rights Committee (with which the US government disagrees) has done. It might, in fact, be arguable… Read more »

Francisco Forrest Martin

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that “[w]here a treaty admits of two constructions, one restrictive as to the rights, that may be claimed under it, and the other liberal, the latter is to be preferred. . . . Such is the settled rule in this court. Hauenstein v. Lynham, 100 U.S. 483, 487 (1879); see also Jordan v. Tashiro, 278 U.S. 123, 127 (1928); Tucker v. Alexandroff, 183 U.S. 424, 437 (1902) (“As treaties are solemn engagements entered into between independent nations for the common advancement of their interests and the interests of civilization, and as their main object is, not only to avoid war and secure a lasting and perpetual peace, but to promote a friendly feeling between the people of the two countries, they should be interpreted in that broad and liberal spirit which is calculated to make for the existence of a perpetual amity, so far as it can be done without the sacrifice of individual rights or those principles of personal liberty which lie at the foundation of our jurisprudence.”); Geofroy v. Riggs, 133 U.S. at 271. The Bush Administration repeatedly has failed to construe the GCs and other IHR and IHL treaties liberally. For… Read more »

annej
annej

“Of course, we share the concern about not sending people to face torture. [..] We do not transfer people to countries where we believe it is more likely than not that they will be tortured.”

Maybe as a matter of policy, the US should take a more restrictive view than their interpretion of art 3 CAT. Just reread the quote paragraph. How can you in the same paragraph say that you care about not sending people to face torturen and say at the same time that you will render if the is (a little) more likely that detainees won’t be tortured?

Jim Rhoads

While the critiques noted above make lawyerly arguments, IMHO, they do not demonstrate that the US position is either in bad faith or as untenable as political opponents suggest.

Indeed, so long as the US is under attack by anyone, I am of the opinion that it is in our national interests to assert the most aggressive position possible, much as organized advocacy groups have argued in this country through the twentieth and twenty first centuries.

I believe it is not the job of our Government’s lawyers to hew to conservatively “correct” positions, or to consider themselves bound to any concensus position. Rather they must take the positions they believe are going to protect the US in both the short and long run.

As a litigator who has served as a Government lawyer in a combat zone, I believe folks in Mr. Bellinger’s position are taking the correct advocacy approach in the arena of International Law.

There is. IMHO, nothing in his exposition of our nation’s position that is embarrassing or that would be subject to Rule 11 sanctions were that position being asserted in Civil Litigation in the US.

Jan
Jan

Dear Jim, thank you for the post, which helps me to further clarify and expand my point I was trying to make above. Leaving aside now that some of the positions of the U.S government are legally wrong as so many here in the past day have argued there is the fundamental issue of what is the whole point of it. As you say, it is most probably that the U.S. government adopts such position that they believe are best for their interests. Even if that means torturing someone or sending someone somewhere where they will be likely tortured (which is morally almost the same). So that means that while pursuing my interest, I ignore legitimate interests of all others. (I hope we can agree that not being tortured is a legitimate interest of everybody). In other words it means pursuing my interest to the exclusion of all others. Yet, human rights law and humanitarian constitute essential checks on an unhindered pursue of my interests. Not realising this leads to the main misunderstandings, I think. Human rights law is here to check on us that we do not do certain things even though from OUR point of view they might… Read more »

Tobias Thienel

Jim, I fail to see the added value of the assertion that a given US argument is made in bad faith. As a lawyer, I find it quite sufficient to argue that it is wrong. The bad faith argument also seems to me to be entirely subjective. Even a very bad argument can be made in good faith, and for understandable reasons (though, by definition, not for good reasons). Asserting bad faith is therefore little more than a slur on the person making the argument in question, and detracts from the reasoning of any person making that charge. But you hint at something that has struck me about Mr Bellinger’s posts: he seems to defend the position of the US government in much the same way that you do, i.e. by saying that they are made in good faith, and that there is something to be said for it. But should he not argue that the position of his government is correct? Of course, he will believe that to be the case. But the fact that he often makes his argument in rather more cautious terms suggests that he expects a rather critical attitude from the readers of this blog.… Read more »

Matthew Gross
Matthew Gross

Thus, action in self-defence must be proportionate, and the proportionality of State interferences must be observed under any of a number of human rights provisions. Nowhere is it a defence against a charge of disproportionality in one, possibly quite limited, respect to show that other cases have been handled correctly, or that the overall policy is quite reasonable.

I see no reason to defend against charges of disproportionality in light of their being no real case that there is such a requirement. I don’t see any reason to believe amazingly strained interpretations of “unnecessary suffering” clauses will hold up.

Tobias Thienel

Mr Gross, As you will appreciate, my statement above, which you quote, relates mainly to the working, the content, of a requirement of proportionality, and not so much to its existence. On that, I would be content to believe Benjamin Davis, Geoffrey Corn, and yourself, as cited by Mr Bellinger above. However, I mentioned that there is a requirement of proportionality under Article 51 UN Charter, as confirmed by Nicaragua and Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons, and relating to the intensity of action in self-defence (though not to some other points made by Benjamnin Davis, which concern the protection of civilians, and hence humanitarian law). I do not resile from that. Nor do I take back my somewhat general statement that the principle of proportionality is part of human rights law. This is a rather trite statement. I assume that you would not take issue with this point, so I do not elaborate. You seem to suggest that there is no requirement of proportionality as regards the protection of civilians from attack in armed conflict. If so, I disagree. Consider, for instance, Article 51(5)(b) of the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, prohibiting indiscriminate attacks,… Read more »

Tobias Thienel

Or have I misunderstood your comment? Your earlier comment seems to suggest that you argued against the apparent proposition that the whole policy or strategy should be proportionate to something or other. If that is indeed your point, I quite agree (as I have done above). It is quite impossible to find a legal source for this proposition: it cannot come from either the jus ad bellum or the jus in bello, since it covers also non-military action within that policy, and it cannot come from human rights law, either, as it relates not to specific interferences with the rights of identifiable persons, but with a greater concept. Human rights law is not concerned with greater concepts; it is rather more focused than that. In addition, if the principle of proportionality really applied in the broad manner you may have criticised, it is very difficult to see to what the policy and strategy must be reasonably proportionate, since it is likely to react to a number of attacks, threats or other problems. But I prefer to read Benjamin Davis’ comment as a summary of all the various issues of proportionality arising under different legal regimes, and in distinct contexts (legally… Read more »

Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis

As regards Mr. Bellinger’s Wrap Up, I was out at a Citizen’s Hearing on US Actions in Iraq: The Case of Lt. Ehren Watada this weekend so can only respond today.

1) Good faith legal analysis by a state’s lawyer can be incorrect.

2) Incorrect advice that is followed can lead to illegality.

3) Illegal conduct based on such advice is only made legitimate by acquiescence of all concerned.

4) Without acquiescence, such conduct is illegal and illegitimate.

5) We will not acquiesce.

6) Your advice is illegal and illegitimate. It retains its power only through the power granted to your position.

7) Your advice is an abuse of power.

Best,

Ben

Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis

As Geoffrey Corn’s post makes clear, the Fourth Convention was designed to protect civilian victims of war, and was not intended to be a “safety net” to protect “illegitimate bearers of arms who could not expect full protection under rules of war to which they did not conform.”

Not a safety net but whether the concrete cases of Taliban and Al Qaeda fit into the GC III and IV. I say they do – you say they don’t. At a minimum, you are resiling from your predecessor William Taft IV on the Taliban. Not good enough.

On proportionality – essentially you aske us to trust you and the Administration. I don’t as you have shown that you can not be trusted.

Best,

Ben

Katherine
Katherine

“We do not transfer people to countries where we believe it is more likely than not that they will be tortured” I suppose it would be “uncivil” to call this a lie. It must just simply be a run of bad luck, how close to 100% of the ones we render end up being tortured. I have followed this very closely. Out of well over twenty cases that I know of, I can think of exactly ONE where the prisoner has not either made credible torture allegations or simply not been heard from again: Jamal Mari, rendered to Jordan and later taken to Guantanamo, does not claim to have been abused. That’s the only case I can think of. Can you name another such case? Can you explain why this information is not considered relevant in evaluating future “diplomatic assurances” not to torture? Because as I’m sure you know, Article 3 of the Convention Against Torture requires you to consider “all relevant evidence” in evaluating the danger of torture as a transfer. Can you explain why so many former CIA officials seem to be under the impression that the purpose of rendition is to torture prisoners? Would it do any… Read more »

Matthew Gross
Matthew Gross

Mr. Thienel’s second reply is a correct interpretation of my point. Apologies if I was so brief as to be confusing. I find Mr. Davis’s earlier statement unsatisfactory as he appears to be unwilling to cite individual instances of disproportionate military action, and instead appears to insinuate the entire endevour is somehow a violation.

On proportionality – essentially you aske us to trust you and the Administration. I don’t as you have shown that you can not be trusted.

This is an argument entirely outside the legal aspects of the matter.

Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis

I am sorry that my earlier answer is unsatisfactory. Mr. Bellinger accepts (as he can not do otherwise in any event) that the issue of proportionality operates at a strategic as well as an individual action level. I would suggest that Mr. Gross should be willing to do that also. On the strategic level, to my surprise thanks to Mr. Bellinger, I come to question the entire endeavor of the War in Iraq and whether it is a proportionate response to 9/11. I also question the secret prisons, the torture and cruel inhuman and degrading treatment, the extraordinary renditions, the fanciful MCA – in a word all of the actions that seem to have come from rather hyper restrictive interpretations of basic international law texts or customary international law rules. The Iraqi Special Tribunal and its rules which did not allow the defendants to select their own counsel and had low standards for admission of evidence based on torture (significant departures from Nuremberg that trouble me greatly) are further concerns. I am sorry I am not privy to the kind of intelligence that would permit to raise issue with specific actions other than those we hear about in the news… Read more »

Matthew Gross
Matthew Gross

True, Mr. Bellinger does indeed essentially concede the issue in his post: Proportionality is at issue not only in battlefield applications, but in the strategic context as well, as reflected in Daniel Webster’s letter to Mr. Fox concerning the Caroline incident (noting that Her Majesty’s Government would have to show that the Canadian authorities did nothing “unreasonable or excessive”?) and in the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice on the Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons (“the submission of the exercise of the right of self-defence to the conditions of necessity and proportionality is a rule of customary international law.”?) I admit I was a little surprised the Caroline incident didn’t come up earlier in the discussion. Whether a diplomatic exchange that approaches 200 years in age and which essentially was rejected (The British offered only an apology for violating American territory, not the act itself) provides a firm basis for an international obligation, well, I can only say it’s no more flimsy than the other explanations put forth during this exchange. As for the non-binding ICJ advisory opinion, I hardly feel it need be touched. However, as Mr. Bellinger (and one would imagine, by… Read more »

Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis

Mr. Gross,

The United States is not alone in the world and proportionality is not a tenuously supported rule. It is an essential rule of the laws of war. And I am beginning to appreciate more why it is spoken of also along with necessity in so many circumstances. The combatant’s privilege is subject to limits such as the proportionality of the response. How could it be otherwise? Without proportionality the gravest horrors of our common history can be explained away. Do not dismiss such a core rule in such a light manner please. Proportionality also helps us understand the terrible liberties that are being taken with our blood and treasure on the most flimsy of grounds in our starting the War in Iraq as a supposed response to the 9/11 attack.

Best,

Ben

Charles Gittings

“We do not transfer people to countries where we believe it is more likely than not that they will be tortured” I suppose it would be “uncivil” to call this a lie. Ya, that always strikes me as a little bit wierd too Katherine… I’d call it a fact personally, and wonder why the person turning their nose up thinks that when… * they are trying to tell me for the unteenth time that 1 + 1 = 0, pigs can fly like birds, and that under the United States Constitution, George W. Bush has all the powers of Augustus Caesar… * I claim that they are variously misrepresenting the facts, asserting fallacies, and ignoring reality for the purpose of perpetrating a deliberate fraud… * And that, oh by the way, what they are really doing, on information and belief, is committing war crimes which are Federal Felonies pursuant to 18 USC 2441(c)(1-3) etc. That somehow it is me who is being discourteous, when it is they who are who are lying to my face and committing and / or aiding and abetting crimes we once executed Nazis for committing. It just absolutely blows my mind. Who do they think… Read more »

Tobias Thienel

On the proportionality issue again: I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding regarding the term ‘strategic level’. Mr Bellinger cites the Caroline for the proposition that action must be proportionate also at that level. I agree that the Caroline incident, and the Legality of the Threat of Nuclear Weapons opinion, support the proposition as regards the law of self-defence. Action taken in self-defemce must certainly be proportionate; tis means that the measures taken to defend oneself against an armed attack must not be out of proportion to the end of repelling the attack. (Note: this does not mean that the victim State can only use as many forces in its defence as the aggressor has used in the attack; it means that the sum total of the uses of force employed in self-defence must not be excessive, so that it is perfectly lawful to use overwhelming force, and thus end the conflict fairly rapidly) This is certainly an application of the principle of proportionality at a strategic level, namely at the level of the overall military planning of action in self-defence. But the same rule does not extend to other strategic issues, such as the issues of torture,… Read more »

Tobias Thienel

On a very different issue, it may be noted that the Director of Public Prosecutions for England and Wales said yesterday: ‘On the streets of London, there is no such thing as a war on terror’.

Sir Ken Macdonald argued that the rhetoric about ‘war’ was mistaken, that the terrorist threat was a law enforcement issue, and that there should be ‘legislative restraint’ in reacting to this threat, as opposed to the ‘fear-driven and inappropriate’ response that we have seen.

See the article on this speech in The Times, here.